Australian rugby legend, David Campese reviews rugby unions’ major talking points and looks ahead to what is set to be a memorable British & Irish Lions Tour of Australia in 2025

We caught up with Australian rugby great David Campese, as he reviewed the Autumn internationals so far, as well as looking ahead to what is set to be an incredible British & Irish Lions Tour of Australia. Check out what David had to say, at what is a really exciting time for international rugby union.

Q. Are you happy with the Wallabies and how they’ve turned things around?

Definitely. Don’t get me wrong, I always want the Wallabies to do well. They are part of my DNA. It’s just that over recent years, it’s been disappointing and frustrating to see them where they are. As professionals, with the culture and the history, they have proved me wrong and I am very happy about that. I want them to do well. They have long had the talent but not the structures. They have demonstrated they can play great rugby and enjoy themselves. I have been a critic but it was always with the thought back to my days and what we had and how we used to train to get to that level. The hope is now these guys, with all the resources they get, can be two of three times better than we were.

Q. What has been the most pleasing aspect for you?

The attitude of the players, the way they play and the way they are backing themselves now. They are spreading the ball wide and have some great attacking players.

Q. How impressed have you been by Joseph Sua’ali?

What impresses me the most about him is that he is not a selfish player. He got the ball and did what he had to do as a centre with his passing and offloading. He demonstrated that he is a team player.

Q. What do you think about cross coders and paying them big money?

Playing at the top level of State of Origin gives you great confidence. Sua’ali’i was at school three years ago. He has learned rapidly and he is only going to get better. Tom Wright is another player from rugby league. He has always been a good player and he is thriving in this new atmosphere and environment. So is Len Ikitau. We have four super rugby teams and plenty of talent. It’s just been about trying to find the right combinations. Eddie Jones didn’t rate him, but Joe Schmidt does. They are all playing with smiles on their faces which is great. The more you enjoy your rugby the better you are going to play.

Q. Which areas concern you about the Wallabies?

They are still a bit off in trying to understand what to do when you haven’t got the ball. They all seem to want to score tries from 45 metres out! Sometimes all you need to do is pass the ball and support and chase, that way you might score even more tries.

Q. Joe Schmidt’s influence. Is he the man to turn the Wallabies around into one of the world’s best?

He’s proving me wrong again. It didn’t start well but the players have responded well to the coach. He seems to be doing a great job. He is only on a two-year deal until after the Lions tour next year. He will do everything he can do in that time. It will then be up to the players to take that knowledge on and let’s see who the next coach is going to be.

Q. Is Joe Schmidt just a stop gap then?

That was the rumour but who knows. If he carries on with the improvement and they do well against the Lions, then they would have to look at a new deal until the World Cup.

Q. How important is the Lions to Australia and how exciting is it to think the series could be a humdinger?

Five or six weeks ago, there were rumours that the Lions weren’t terribly happy about the fact that Australia were tenth in the world and might not be competitive. This tour so far has shown that the Wallabies can be a very competitive team. They have won two games and they have to keep on going. They have to build on what they have done. You have to perform week in week out. Financially it will be rewarding for Rugby Australia with talk of them banking $100m.The tour in 2013 grossed $40m. With Rugby Australia’s financial situation, the tour is a life saver. If we can be competitive and win, then that will boost rugby massively in Australia. We have several other sports ahead of us in popularity. People have to realise that rugby must be a spectacle. It is about entertaining and if you don’t entertain, then the Australian people will not watch.

Q. What do you make of Brett Robinson’s election as chairman of World Rugby?

It’s a great achievement for him and for us but the Six Nations will always hold the upper hand and stick together. That is where the voting power is. He could be up against it. What annoys me is that union has taken on board a couple of league laws in the past couple of years. Why? Union is unique. You don’t see league taking our laws. Why don’t we just try to make our sport better.

Q. What are your memories of the Lions in 1989? Not great for you personally?

It was bloody hard. We came off a good couple of years. The brawl that started in the second test was very unusual. It was started deliberately by the Lions. That’s the tactics they felt were needed to win. It worked. They wouldn’t get away with it now. They had two policemen in Wade Dooley and Paul Ackford who loved a fight. It was pretty hard to stop. Then you had the likes of Mike Teague. It wasn’t easy! They did what they had to do to win.

Q. Does your mistake which gifted Ieuan Evans a try still cause you nightmares?

It’s part of life. When I coach kids now I tell them that they will make mistakes and no one is perfect. The more mistakes you make, the better you will get and learn from them. My mistake was in the full glare of live television and cost us the series but I look at it positively. If I did not make that mistake I probably would not have played the 1991 World Cup the way I did and which we won! You have to take a negative and turn it into a positive.

Q. If Australia win at Murrayfield this weekend, suddenly a Grand Slam tour is possible with the game in Ireland next weekend? No one could have predicted that could they?

Firstly, I can’t understand why Scotland played Portugal in the lead up to facing Australia. I know people weren’t taking Australia seriously a couple of weeks ago. I can’t see Scotland beating us this weekend. At this level, you need to have consistency, not least selection and play with each other week in week out as far as you can. Scotland have made it very difficult for themselves by not playing their full team. It’s going to be very interesting. Australia will win by 10-15 points.

Q. Wales v South Africa. Gatland is under real pressure with an 11 game losing streak – they are in a mess aren’t they?

If you haven’t got the cattle, then it is very difficult. Wales tried but they haven’t got the experience. It was men against boys when we played them on Sunday. Wales are in disarray on and off the pitch. They showed a picture of Nigel Walker on the big screen and everyone booed. It is sad. The Welsh are very proud people and they are the ones who really invented running rugby as we know it. Look where they are now. How has it got to this stage? They have lost a lot of senior players but where are their talent pathways? It’s also about economics.

Q. Should they keep Warren Gatland?

Warren Gatland made clear he was going to start again when he came in and wipe the slate clean. The WRU board should come out and say ‘We support you.’ They bought into his vision when he started again for a second time. He told them he would have to rebuild and everyone knows it takes time. But the WRU is sitting in silence. They can’t sit on the fence. They have to back him.

Q. If he did go, who could replace him?

Who knows? That’s the same problem as Australia had. They haven’t got any coaches. There is no succession plan. Where are the new Welsh coaches? Is Sam Warburton the answer? Who knows.?

Q. It is going to be painful for Wales v South Africa this weekend, isn’t it?

It could be a horror show. The Springboks could easily put another 50 points on them and batter them. It is not going to be pretty.

Q. As a former winger yourself, how do you rate Cheslin Kolbe?

What a player, what a great player! He is just getting better. He is a great entertainer and the best thing about him is that he is not 120 kilograms! He provides such flair and excitement. It means young kids can look at him and realise that they too could still play rugby. That’s what is most inspiring about him, the impact he has on the next generation...

Q. He is one of three Springboks, along with Pieter-Steph du Toit and Eben Etzebeth that are in the frame for world player of the year. Plus Caelin Dorris ofIreland. Who should win the award?

That just shows how dominant South Africa are in the game. The player of the year has got to come from the best team. They are by far the best in the world. So good that they could put out five teams which could hold their own against anyone. To my mind it has to be Etzebeth. As a forward in the middle of the scrum to do what he does week in week out is phenomenal.”

Q. England v Japan. England are having a miserable run. Danny Care let rip saying how awful the environment was under Eddie Jones and how everybody walked in fear of him?

Eddie is Eddie. He is probably all those things. He did very well when he started out and people forget about that. Every coach is different. I am sure people have bad things to say about a lot of coaches. They wanted him, they got him and he did what they wanted him to do. A professional coach is demanding. He has to be. If you don’t like it, tough luck. That is what a coach is paid to do. He is not in the popularity stakes. I’m sure the England fans will let rip at him, but he won’t care.”

Q. What about Steve Borthwick? He has to be on thin ice, doesn’t he?

Yes. He is under a lot of pressure. England are going backwards. If you didn’t have Marcus Smith in the side, you would be struggling big time. He’s a bloody good player and everything revolves around him. Why mess around with him, by replacing him or switching him to fullback? He is an 80-minute rugby player. Moving Smith to fullback against Australia cost England the game. He goes to 15 and all of a sudden, he is out of position and Australia scores and win the game. He is not a 15, he is a ten. He has been defending differently the whole game and then he is moved to a different position where the pressure is. Being out wide, you get exposed very easily. Even if England beat Japan, that’s an awful return from the autumn

Q. Ireland don’t seem to be firing on all cylinder.

I think people are starting to rumble them. You can’t keep playing the same style week in week out. Things will start to fall apart. They have some young guys now making simple mistakes. They play a very structured game. That’s the rugby league influence of Andy Farrell. That is his background. Ireland have been playing that way for a number of years. In 2022 Ireland beat the All Blacks down there yet in the World Cup, New Zealand changed their style and Ireland did not. That is what happens in rugby. If you don’t change or move on, you get exposed. I am not a fan of rugby league's influence in union. It all started back in 1996 and everyone got players and defence coaches across. Rugby union is no longer a game about attack, it is all about defence. Ireland rely on their defence and hope opponents make a mistake which they can capitalise on. Rugby never used to be like that.

20th OCTOBER 1991. Dublin, Ireland. Rugby World Cup. Ireland 18 v Australia 19. Australia's        David Campese races away from Ireland's Rob Saunders to score first try.